Steering

[jimmyybob]

Im moving onto steering soon so i thought i would do some reaserch...i wish i hadnt....does anyone understand all this stuff.

http://machinedesign.com/article/designing-a-better-steering-system-0926

[brian]

In a word, no.

But I do know a simple calculation for ackerman angle.

Draw a line from the centre of the rear axle passing through the front kingpin swivels, make your steering arms lie along this angle and you will not be far out.

Regards,

Brian.

[markh15]

Hi JB,
It's a very confusing subject for the bloke in the street. Like Brian (the Oracle) has pointed out, use the simple calculation mentioned, and you won't go far wrong.

Alternatively, if you use (or are using) Mobility Scooter Kingpin / Spindles, these already have an 'Akerman' angle built in, so no need to worry about it. As long as you don't change the length Ed
I have recently got hold of a frame and steering assembly from a Sukuki LT 50 Quad.
I stripped it down this afternoon, to find it not only has the aforementioned 'Akerman' angles, but 'Caster' and 'Camber' angles built in as well, Nightmare!!

K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Sunshine),

Regards,
Mark.

[jimmyybob]

Tonight i made up the outer and inner steering column and things are going to be a bit tight, i noticed that in your landrovers you have a lot more width to play with as the tractors main body is only about 224mm wide i need to cram stuff in, and as you might of guessed mine is far from what the manual details..
i need to decide if i can come directly from the column to the steering arms or to use a chain an sprocket to get the links as far forward as i can to get the link arms in line......does that make any sense at all.

[markh15]

Hi Guys,
In standard form, the steering, no matter what vehicle you have, is direct, simple to make and kids arn't worried.

As this is a minefield to try and negotiate, I will try to keep it simple.
As Walter has stated somewhere else within the forum, it's only the Adults that worry about 'Twitchy' steering, the kids don't notice it.

Some of us have tried, to varying degrees of success, to solve this desire to give a more 'Realistic' feel, but the situation is (with the cars at least), that there is not enough space available under the front wheel arches for the modified stuff.

Quadra's (Mike) steering box has a ratio of 2:1. Brian and myself went for 3:1 ratios, hoping for more than a 90 degree steering wheel turn from lock to lock (yes it's that tight).

Although mine is slightly more (about 135 degrees L 2 L), I am disappointed with the performance, as the gears have some slack in them, and this is amplified through the joints, giving close to 180 degrees with the play in the system.

I think Brian has had the best result, with about the same steering wheel movement, but less play, as the chain can be tensioned to relieve the slack.

J.B., you don't say if the column on the tractor is vertical, or has a slight backwards rake.
If the column is vertical, you could run a 'Chan and Sprocket' system forwards, (below the floor) and then box it in to keep little fingers out. If it has rake, then your 'Direct to Kingpin' linkage looks favourite, with a link bar between the two steering arms. This is the same type employed on the bigger Lawn Tractors (mowers), so wouldn't look out of place.

Ted, your problem is going to be the same as everyone else's, lack of wheel arch clearance. You could solve this by moving the 'Inner' wheel arches farther in, by only a couple of inches (to the center of the vehicle), as you have modified the front end to a Defender type, and this would give more turning room for the wheels. Then you could choose either a 'Chain and Sprocket' system, or build a 'Steering Box' (depending on material availability), or modify a 'Window Winder' mechanism. But beware not being able to get the battery in!

This subject is going to be a pain for many builders and one that is not actually necessary.

Hope this has helped,
Keep Busy,
Regards,
Mark.

[jimmyybob]

Mine has a rake(the original doesnt)... i did find on the internet the other day drawings for a one off steering rack it was very simple and intended for a single seater race car.........but ive lost where i found it.

[brian]

Hello Ted, I have geared my steering to a 3/1 ratio which gives a lock to lock movement of the steering wheel of 3/4 of a turn, my sprockets are 10 teeth and 30 teeth using a 3/8 chain.

There is a 40 tooth sprocket which would give you a full turn of the steering wheel, lock to lock.

If you read my thread, you will see I have included a chain tensioning device to remove as much slack as possible from the steering.  [I didn't want the car to fail it's MOT]

My thread will also tell you where I got them from, agh, just remembered, a company called "Bearing Boys", they do not have a large carriage sharge or minimum order price as "Technobots" dose.

Regards,

Brian.

[markh15]

Hi J.B.,
Then it looks like you're on rods to connect everything up, unless you can fit a U/J on the end of the steering shaft to correct the rake.

The only other thing I can think of is an 'L' shaped piece of metal at the axle end, pivoted through the angle, with the steering column connected to the bottom of the 'L', and two rods either side of the top of the 'L' connected to the King Pins.

Hope that makes sense,
Keep Busy,
Regards,
Mark.

[jimmyybob]

Would anyone like to have a session with photoshop.
The best solution goes into production.!
Basicly you need to join the yellow dots with linkages.




This one gives you an idea of the angle.


I think i could just about fit in a U/J to make the steering shaft end flat if needed.

[brian]

Hello JBob, I'm not mucking about with photoshop but I'll try and explain what I would do.

First off, I would brace the swing axle back to the body as in a real tractor by whatever means you choose.  I used anti roll bar droplinks from a roadgoing vehicle, these have a long rod with a  threaded ball joint at each end and are perfect for this application.

Second, I would get a universal joint fitted to the end of the steering shaft to get the drive vertical, and to this would be fitted the small sprocket.

As near to the swing axle as possible, I would mount the large sprocket on a vertical axle and fit the steering idler arm to this.  This would be linked to each of your yellow dots on the steering swivel arms, which would be welded to the kingpins with the short arms being aimed at the centre point of the rear axle when the front wheel stub axles are at 90deg. to the centreline of the tractor, ie wheels straight ahead, with a pair of rose jointed track rods.

In other words, very similar to the method of steering I have used with the exception of splitting the track rod into two pieces and doing away with the seperate idler arm.

Regards,

Brian.

[jimmyybob]

Thank you brian...that does sound the easiest way to do it.
There is a brace drawing in the manual i just havent fitted it yet.!

[brian]

Hi again JBob.

Make sure the universal joint has a support bearing both sides of the sprocket, and the shaft for the large sprocket is well supported, there is a terrific tension on these two bearings when the wheel is being turned, you will also probably require a tensioning device for the chain.

Feel free to copy and improve, nothings patented on here:D

Regards,

Brian.

[bill shuter]

Has ANYBODY built a toulander using 'standard' sreering setup as supplied by Richard?

[brian]

Probably, but us lot on here are all studying for a first class honours degree in Toylander engineering.

A few of us have sat our finals and are just waiting for Richard to award us our degrees. A few more of us are going on for a Doctorete with exams pending, and an even smaller group are going on into research in the lab to try and clone the ultimate Toylander.  

It's all supposed to be hush hush but someone keeps feeding news to the forum.  We are not sure yet who the infiltrator is, but rumour has it he drives a red T2, erratically.

So, if you are not prepared to knuckle down, study hard and post regular updates of your progress on here, you will be lucky to get a 3rd awarded, Richard is a very harsh marker.

Regards,

Brian.  MA, Toylander engineering.

[markh15]

Hi Bill,
I built mine with standard steering originally. Most of us who have Improved / Messed up / Got Disappointed with the steering, have done it to try and give a more 'Realistic' feel to the cars, and not steering using the force Luke!!

There have been varying degrees of success, and ratios used, but personally, i think that Brian's system of 'Chain and Sprockets', is the most precise, and works the best.

Keep Smiling,
Regards,
Mark.