Brake systems

[martin]

I've looked at the instructions and am wondering if really couldn't be done much more easier ?  Since the rear has generally a solid live axle, can't I simply use a drum brake system from a go-kart?  I would only require a simple brake cable to run to the rear.

For instance check these parts out.

http://www.gokartgalaxy.com/4_5_drum_brakes_&_components.htm

[Anthony]

Hi Martin,
If you come up with a simpler system that satisfies the need to apply stopping and a hand brake that will satisfy the testing house criteria and EN71 Child Safety rules I'll adopt it on the whole range. We have applied our collective brains to this many times in an attempt to make it simple to make and cheap to buy.
As a private individual you can use whatever system you deem suitable [thank goodness we still have some freedoms] but as a business I am ruled by the legislation in place at any one time.
Go Martin; let's see what you can do. I would like to use a disc and one of my agents has been attempting to attach it to the drive wheel conversion. Pictures due soon.
Years ago we used a pivoted pedal, I have looked at that again but the angle of the pedal is not good and it is still quite involved.
Best wishes
Richard

[markh15]

Hi Martin,
This subject is a case of 'whatever works for you'.

It's all a matter of your little person's ability to grasp the 'push one to go, push another to stop' theory.

Looking at the website you have linked to, you could use the 4" band type brakes, and operate these with a cable, and devise a system that could operate a rod for the Hand / Parking brake on the same band without too much effort.
As the car will only be moving at quite slow speeds, this should be more than adequate for the job in hand.

Personally speaking, I have used the 'Electric Brake' which is standard fitment on the more modern Mobility Scooter for the time being, as I felt that this was easier or my then 3 year old Grandson (he's 4 now) to use (push to go, lift to stop), as this not only gives very adequate stopping power, but also effectively applies an 'Automatic' parking  brake system.
This said, I have also made provision for a 'Manual' braking system, and mounted 'Mountain Bike' disk rotors to the inside of the rear hubs, and bought 'Mini Moto' calipers to provide the stopping power. These will be cable operated, applied from a 'Pendulum' pedal mounted on the bulkhead.

Just at the moment, the 'electronic' brake is fine, but I can change to the 'manual' system when Harvey gets a little older and more co-ordinated, without too much trouble.

As Richard say's, use your own judgement, and maybe you will find a simpler solution for others to use.

Keep Thinking,
Regards,
Mark.

[multisync]

Hi Martin
If you can find a suitable and simple solution, there's a lot of us folks who would be very interested.
I note that you say "Since the rear has generally a solid live axle", but this is not usually the case. If you follow the drawings, each wheel runs on bearings on a fixed axle beam, and I for one can't see where there is room to fit a brake on the moving part of the hub, or how you would get it fitted in between the wheel and the sprocket anyway. If you do fit a live axle with both wheels on it, perhaps with the axle running in "plummer blocks" then a centre brake is an option, but you would lose the differential effect.
Perhaps you could post some sketches of your thoughts. Like Mark, I have used a mobility scooter, with an automatic electric brake, but I have plans for another model, and this would need to have bralkes so I'm very interested.
Best of luck with the build
Walter

[markh15]

Hi Guys,
I think with a little thought and planning, you could get the 'Band' type brake in-between the wheel and axle mounting post, with the gear on the inside edge.
It would only take a small amount of modification to mount the 'Drum' to the wheel extension for the sprocket.

The pivot point for the band could be mounted either on the rear inner wing, or under the floorpan, with the 'Peg' protruding into the wheel well, either in front of the chain if using the Toylander arrangement, or between the top and bottom run of the chain (as this runs more diagonally) if using a scooter axle arrangement.
The cable could take the route along the inside of the rear inner wheelarch, and along under the floorpan, up through the battery compartment and through the bulkhead to the pedal.

The handbrake could then be operated by either cable or rod, connected to a lever similar to the original design.

I hope that this all makes sense, as I'm just thinking in print, but I'll draw up some diagrams and post them later on if it doesn't.

Keep Busy,
Regards,
Mark.

[multisync]

Hi Guys
Yes Mark, I know what you mean, but if you envisage the gear on the inside edge, and the wheel on the outside edge. How do you get it onto the shaft? Even if there is room.
If you buy the set up from Toylander to build as per the manual, It comes ready asembled and welded up with a wheel on one end and the sprocket on the other.
See my sketch. (I know its an awful sketch)
It would not be posible to get the brake unit onto the hub, and if mounted inboard, then the axle mount would have to be moved inward as well. This would leave an excessively long unsupported axle and the risk of it bending.
I hope this makes sense!
Walter

[multisync]

Hi Again
I have an invalid buggy, 8 mph version, that has a drum brake built into the hub on the nearside wheel only, its completely unserviceable as it's had a bad bump  at some time, but the idea is there. Interesting that it is only on one wheel.
I have also seen a three wheel buggy with a brake on the front wheel, drum brake, cable operated.

You can just about see the setup in the pic.
Walter

[markh15]

Hi Walter,
In your sketch, you show the layout of the Toylander Wheel / Sprocket mount in it's standard form.

We are assuming that Martin is using the Toylander setup, but I understand that he is using a 'Go-Kart' axle with a differential, a single drive sprocket and Bearing Blocks to mount the assembly, so fitting a drum brake to the opposite side is possible.

The way I saw it in my mind's eye, was to cut the extension piece on the wheel (somewhere in the middle), and weld on a flange to mount the 'Drum' to. The piece that you have cut off would have another flange welded to the end (opposite the sprocket), with corresponding holes drilled through each component for bolts to pass through.  The Sprocket end of the shaft would have to be shortened slightly (by the thickness of the two flanges and the drum, about 12 mm I guess), but the drum would then mount between the wheel and the sprocket.

Hopefully the band could be mounted with enough clearance from the chain, and the cables, to work in the manor described.

As I said, I have had to guess at the available space with the standard Toylander system, but looking at the build manual, my hub setup, and the space I have, I can't see that it's not feasable.

I will try and illustrate this with a diagram tomorrow, but I hope that this explaination is a little clearer for all.

Keep Busy,
Regards,
Mark.

[multisync]

HI MARK
Ah, now that makes a bit of sense now; assuming that you can cut and shut the extension piece and still maintain the alignment. You (one) could of course buy the unit from Richard without the sprocket. Then mount the brake and sprocket yourself (oneself)!
Walter

[markh15]

Hi Walter,
Have you any more 'Spanners' you want to throw at me,  or have you done now?

It was meant to be a solution to a problem, and an aid for Richard, not a problem finding mission!

I understand what you mean, and it would be easier to build from scratch rather than modify existing parts, but I was just 'Thinking in print' as we say.

No Harm, No Foul,

Keep Busy,
Regards,
Mark.

[multisync]

Hi Mark
Thinking in print? sounds like a dangerous occupation!
Just thinking at all makes my brain hurt!
But you do have a valid point there. If one were to use Richards wheels with the extensions, but without the sprockets, it might be possible to mount a flange on the extension, close to the wheel, with fixings for the brake, and then fix the sprocket on the inside of the brake, on a smaller flange. There's not a lot of room but it might be possible.
What am I saying? I would be better off making hubs like yours and bolt on wheels.
Keep your head down, I'm throwing another spanner in;
I was just looking back through your build details to refresh my memory on your brake setup, and I notice some of your pictures are missing, page 2 I think.
Keep the brain active
Best Wishes
Walter

[markh15]

Hi Walter,
Well spotted Hawkeye!
Yes you're right, there are some pictures missing.

I was doing some 'Housekeeping' on photobucket t'other day, and these pictures have been deleted, so the link has gone too, I forgot about that!

The pictures are of the old components used in the first incarnation of the car, and replaced in the re-fit, sorry about that.

Keep Busy,
Regards,
Mark.

P.S. your last spanner missed!

[multisync]

Hi Mark
Can you please stop using rude words on this forum, words like housekeeping, my wife may read it
KR's
Walter

[markh15]

Hi Walter,
I can get away with it, my missus is out, and she's not allowed on my computer!!
 
So Dusting, Vacuuming and Polishing to you! (all things I don't do often)

Regards, Mark.

[martin]

Indeed I will have the motor on one side and I suspect I'll have space on the other wheel to put the brake on running a cable for the Toylander 2.

Having an electronic brake has crossed my mind as the motor that I have has one on it.   This week I get most of the axle / hubs and wheels in and will check how much space I have.