Cutting the plans

[markh15]

Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone else has had problems with the cutting out the parts? I cut the parts from copies of the patterns supplied, and I found that some of the drawings were not square, (or didn't seem so).  Also some of the symetrical pieces, when cut to the copies, weren't the same size. I mentioned this to Richard, and he explained that copying the patterns apart from being illegal causes the patterns to expand in length by 10 percent and minimal change in width. All the recent ones he has built are from CNC cut parts, but he did not have the problem when building the first few from patterns.

Has anyone else had these problems, or is it just my poor cutting and crap jigsaw!
Best Wishes, Mark.

[multisync]

Yes I'm sure you are right, but as I had built many models, boats and aircraft, from plans before, I was aware of this type of problem so I didnt actually use them as templates. I used measurements, some from the drawings and some from my part built model, to produce the parts, and cut each piece to fit as I went along. I feel that many of the parts could be better made from dimensioned drawings, rather than templates, with the templates used for the sides where the curved wing details are important.
One of the reasons that this problem occurs is because the paper gets hot during printing and loses its true shape.
Keep on building
best wishes
walter

[Anthony]

There are two additional concerns: damp conditions and photocopying. Twice a year, Spring and Autumn are the worst time for paper movement. Photocopying the plans adds another dimension shift. I tried it as an alternative to printing but no matter where I went, printer or photocopy shop, they always came out a different size, on average 10% longer but the same width.  When you consider that the panels are printed in different planes it makes all the more opportunity for mistakes. And the first time I didn't notice until I was well into a customer build. Doh! However we do ask that patterns are not copied.

We don't have the same situation with the Toylander 1 because all the dimensions are shown for every panel and CAD was used to draw up the patterns. The pattern can therefore be checked before cutting. The new patterns for the TL2, drawn on CAD by an expert, are currently being tested before going to print. Can anybody teach me CAD please?

On the subject of jigsaws I always used a new blade for each side panel and swap between standard and narrow blades for the tight curves then use the blades for the remaining panels. The router idea was suggested to me by a customer. Use one with a bearing guide: cut out the first side panel, prepare it and as soon as you are happy with it route the second and third etc.

Thank you for your support Walter.

Keep the wheels turning on your Toylanders
Richard

[markh15]

Hi Richard,
Thank you for the explaination.
 
Walter's experience of making models from plans in the past, gives him an edge over the rest of us, but he does makes a valid point. Make the major chassis components from the drawings, then measure each part individually for an accurate fit. Unfortunately, not all builders have Walter's expertise in building replicas from plans (me included), so errors are going to occur.

As most Toylanders are produced as 'Winter Projects', it would seem that the distortion of the plans is going to be a major problem for other builders.
It appears to me, that if the drawings are not reproduced accurately (by whatever method), then any measurements taken from these are also going to be wrong.
Would it not be better therefore, to print the dimensions of the parts directly on the plans for the T2, in the same manner as the T1.  See message above re new patterns available shortly based on what we learned from the Toylander 1This would give future builders a reference point to check, not only the parts, but the accuracy of the drawings, thus eliminating any further errors.

I mean no disrespect, Richard, and I thouroughly enjoyed building my project, and would recommend Toylander to anyone, but most people would expect 'Cut and Paste' plans to be accurate, and not have to modify parts to fit. Do not paste this distorts badly.
It would appear that I have put my foot in it again, and opened a 'Can of Worms' with this subject.
I posted the question believing that it was my limited woodwork skills, that had caused the errors, and was curious to see if anyone else had encountered similar problems, to clear up any doubt. That's OK Mark all questions welcome. We have sold over a seven hundred sets of TL2 patterns since I bought the business so lots of folk are having fun building the Toylanders.

I am sorry I should not have copied the patterns.

Many Thanks,
Regards,
Mark. (troublemaker)

[Stanley]

hi,
this has got me a little bit worried  
could someone plese specify the exact problems?
is it all the T2 plans which has this problem???
ive been checking the plans, and can't find any problems???
thx,
^stan

Well spotted Stan

[multisync]

Hi Guys
It took me 3 months to do the build, from purchase of drawaings to first test run, but I made or modified most of the parts myself; so fabrication time, and time spent sourcing parts, were a major factor.
Cutting, welding, threading, and machining all takes time, finding someone to supply a small quantity of steel takes even longer!
If I had all the parts to hand when needed, ready made, without spending time shopping around; and without spending hours on this forum chatting about non existent problems that Richard had already solved,  ; it would be a different story.
The build was more inportant to me than the end product, so in a way, the longer it took, the more entertainment value!
If you build from a full kit I would guess 100 hours would be ample, but it is a guess!
Best of luck, Walter
40 hours assembly once body built and steel work assembled.

[paulr]

Morning all, haven't really counted our build time but to give you an idea we sourced and cut our own wood, and also made our own axles and the steering bits.  We bought the build book in September at Boston Miniature Steam weekend where Richard had his Toylander display (if some big kid namley HER hadn't gone for a drive in one we might not be doing this !!!). Build work started in November and has been done mainly at weekends over winter due to daylight problems.  We are now at the stage waiting for the paint to be finished and dried out. All being well thats this weekend then we will start on assembley.
Hope to have it up and running this summer preferably early on but got miniature engine boiler test to sort out next weekend which fingers crossed will go well so we can have a few weeks intense work on Toylander before starting the rally season. After that it will be evenings only.

Happy building
Paul R and Mrs R

[markh15]

Hi Paul,
You mention that the Inner and Outer wings are different by about a Centimeter.
This is normal, as there is a Valance / Skirt piece that sits between the Bottom of the Inner Wings (butting up against their lower edge), and between the Radiator / Grill panel and the Front Bumper, angled upwards from the bumper to the Radiator Panel on the T2.

Try and 'Test Fit' the major parts, and make adjustments where nessesary. Providing that they are all the right width (the same as the floor / bulkhead / riser), then the length isn't that critical, and minor trimming can take place. Just remember, better too long than too short!

At one point, I thought I'd cut my sides wrong, as they wouldn't fit for love nor money! It took me days to find the problem, but I found out that the Floor had a slight curve in it, and had to temporarily fit 2x1 battens along it to straighten it out.

Look at it this way, when you've finally cracked it, you'll be a true, fully fledged 'Toylander' builder!

Keep Busy,
Regards,
Mark.

[markh15]

Hi Paul,
I have been studying my build manual this afternoon, and have noticed somthing with the drawings that may be misleading you.
On pages 9 & 10, it looks as if the body is longer than it actually is, and that the seat is farther forward, this is not the case.
Treat them as 'Illustrations', and not true representations of the finished car.

As you say the rear corners of the seat base encroach slightly into the top corners of the wheelarch apertures, mine's the same, (but not as much as yours) and I solved it by 'Chamfering' them down to make them less noticable (only I saw them, but it annoyed me).

The sides are a worry, but if you've followed the instructions in the build manual, they should be the same as everyone elses.

I would like to bet that the battens placed onto the body sides are the problem.
I found that the battens on the cars sides, seemed to be in the wrong places, so I placed them when I was happy the body was lined up correctly.

I took all of the battens off the sides, turned the tub on it's side, placing the side on top, and fit the sides 'by eye', aligning the front end first with the aid of a large set square hanging down across the body, before clamping it into place (loosely), before aligning the back end.
Don't forget that on the outer (body) side, the wing top sits FLUSH with the top, and sits ON TOP of the Inner Wing panel, so a piece of scrap timber is needed on top of the Inner Wing, to get the alignment right.

Once you are totally happy with the alignment of the sides, then mark the position of the battens, Front Bulkhead (No 2), Floor Edge (No 3), Riser (Extra), with a pencil, and attach them with the aid of your Set Square. The batten for the riser fits 'In-between' the top and bottom battens on the riser, but screws to the body. I used it as a 'Location' device, but it can be screwed to the riser (after final assembly) for extra strength if required.

This will give you an 'Interferance Fit' of the panels, and they can be positioned for test fitting without screws. Note, the TOP of the Floor batten is 2 inches above the lower edge of the Body Side, roughly level with the sill line.
 
This is how I found the 'Warping' in the floor panel, and once this was sorted, things came together easier.

As for the front Skirt / Valence, it was my interpretation that it seemed to fit below the edges of the wings, filling the slight gap at the bottom of the inner edge, before being held in place with panel pins. But I have just looked at the build manual again, and it would appear that your method is correct, and I was Wrong!
I do recall having to re-position the fixing batten slightly lower down on the front panel, to get the skirt / valance to fit properly, so this is probably why.

I appologise to Richard, as it seems that I am attacking his plans, but I know that this problem is not of his making.
You may not be aware, but Richard 'Inherited' the plans when he bought the company some years ago, so changes are going to be gradual, but they are coming. [2009]

Like we have said before, try to assemble the parts and make adjustments as you go. When you succeed (as we know you will), then you will be inducted into the 'I built mine from patterns' club, and all will be doubly impressed!

Keep Smiling,
Best Regards,
Mark.

[brian]

Hello Paul, we are back.

I have just taken some photo's of our T2.



Not sure exactly what you mean about seat base but this shows the supports for the seat base which have to be truncated so that they do not show across the wheel arch, is this what you mean?

Our seat base just skims the top of the rear arch.

Brian.

[brian]

This photo shows the front of the tub.



And another angle.



Because I have painted the underside black, it is difficult to distinguish between the various pieces of MDF, but I have mounted the radiator grill in front of the end of the floor panel and then put another piece of MDF across the front to support the vallance panel

I can't remember whether this is in the original design but this is what i did to strengthen this joint.

Brian.

[brian]

This shows the rear of the tub with the tailgate section fixed to the end of the floor section.



Brian.

[paulr]

  Paul have a look at your personal messages  dont know if this will be helpful to you.
And i the meantime don't give up and heres hoping to a dry Easter so we can all work outside on Toylanders rather than confined to workshops and garages. Regards PaulR

[Nerdos]

Little update for whoever may be interested.  I think I'm back on track now.  Many many thanks to all who have offered advice particularly Brian the travelling consulting engineer, PaulR and Mark.  I did bite the bullet in the end and hack about 12mm or so off the back of the floorpan.  I guess now that the hole I drilled for the rear axle's initial mounting will be wrong but I will attempt to cross that bridge when I come to it.  My lads seem quite chuffed with it even in its bare MDF finish, even requesting that they have their tea in it.
Am intending going to LandRover Max show in Newark and bringing TL with me so maybe see some of you there?

Thanks again and I'm sure I'll be back just as soon as I've bought the metalwork.

PaulB


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